How do you think we can make men care about the damage sexism does?

I was asked the question, “How do you think we can make men care about the damage sexism does?” on ask.fm.

Here’s my answer…

I’ve been thinking about this for a few days now, and I think that my answer is that I don’t really know. I guess I have a few ideas, but they all seem a bit vague, unoriginal and largely ineffectual. But anyway…

I feel that the first step would unfortunately have to be consciousness-raising – and I don’t mean of the damage that sexism does, but of the fact that sexism actually exists. So many men seem extremely resistant to accepting this. I think this would have to include both quantitative and qualitative evidence of how sexism manifests itself – but then I start thinking, “This consciousness-raising has been going on for centuries, and yet still the debate rages on.”

So…scrap that – men know that sexism exists, and either pretend that they don’t know, or proudly flaunt their apathy towards this. And, following on from that, men either ignore the damage that this causes, or are fully aware of it and, basically, okay with it. The reasons why men take this stance are no secret.

Honestly, I’m a bit stumped. I remember something I read when I was in my late-teens (I think it was Dale Carnegie’s ‘How to Win Friends and Influence People’) that said something along of the lines of successfully persuading people to undertake a particular course of action is about explaining to them how that course of action benefits them directly. But that seems unsatisfactory in this instance – it makes it all about men. However, perhaps that approach would at least be a step in the right direction, despite its dubious foundation.

..but I felt that I was far from being the best person to answer this question, so I posted the same question to people that I follow on ask.fm. Here are the responses, unedited and in the order that I received them:

Personally, I think that most men are unconsciously sexist. Because it’s such an entrenched part of our language & behaviour, it doesn’t seem that important to men who think they are being funny. More men need to listen to women’s experiences. @evb_now ‎@everydaysexism are good starting points for men who can’t see the problem.

For those who deliberately discriminate against women, those who believe women to be inferior, hysterical, emotional, unreliable employees, only good for sex & having kids? Kill them.

Men will only care about the damage sexism does if they see it affecting them personally. That’s why some try to frame it as “Your wife or daughter”, to make it personal. Men need to understand how the socialization of masculinity – the indoctrination of male violence – harms them personally, impoverishes them emotionally, and damages their relationships with others, especially with women.

I’m in a fairly desolate emotional place right now, so maybe I’ll re-answer at a later date when I’m feeling less pessimistic. I actually don’t know what it would take for men to care. They’re conditioned not to.

There are well-meaning men who are pretty close to me, who are exposed to all of my beliefs (and the reasons behind them) and know about personal damage that I’ve incurred in my life because of being a girl/woman. It only seems to get them as far as being almost completely inert around feminist matters (don’t get me wrong, I think that’s actually better than being some of the shitheads on ‎@FeministMen). I don’t know what they really think or if they really care.

The only men (and we’re talking one, maybe two) I know of who have actively demonstrated their feminist awareness are this way because of intensive exposure to a radical woman (in their family or intimate life) over a period of years. That seemed to do the trick for Stoltenberg. At this point that’s not something we can mass produce, sadly.

The idea that “if men could only see how BAD it is for women, they’d get it” is flawed because it presupposes that men love women. Men, in fact, hate women. The exceptions I mentioned above are so because they are exceedingly rare men who have happened to genuinely love a radical woman.

It’s defeatist, but at the moment I feel our energies may be better spent reaching a critical mass of women to instantiate concrete changes and infrastructure that will engineer a better culture in the future. One day it might output some men we can work with.

I think that video of dustin Hoffman helps show it. & getting men to look at everydaysexism.com is important & I think just listening to women’s experiences is a good way. I mean it’ll help them have an insight into the damage caused but I don’t know how to make men, especially those who disagree with feminism & what it stands for, to truly understand what experiencing sexism is like.

I’ll answer this with my own thoughts in detail when I get back from my holiday.

For now, I leave you (and all my followers) with this quote: “Justice will not be served until those who are unaffected are as outraged as those who are.” I challenge you to think about this for a while, just as I will.

I’m not sure if my answer is a little naive as I know how deep misogyny runs and that men have been told for so long that there’s nothing wrong with what they’re saying/doing but:

I think if women tell men exactly how sexism has hurt them and affected their lives can help. Telling men how the sexist comments they make which they think are jokes or flippant are actually harmful and perpetuate sexism rather than being humorous.

I think men respond better to being told things like this individually; in a group they are more likely to feel like they need to “act out”, e.g. a group of builders are more likely to use cat calls than one on his own; or a man cracking sexist “jokes” on Twitter is more likely to do it if he thinks he will get an audience.

Hopefully, in this way, if each individual learns to respect women, the group “banter” is less likely to occur or escalate, as even if there is one deeply misogynistic man amongst them who starts things off, if one remembers what his mum/sister/grandma/auntie/daughter/wife/girlfriend told him he may not join in and this could have a ripple effect so that it is no longer seen as being “uncool” to not join in with such comments and in fact calling out sexism becomes more of a norm.

I think ensuring sexism is removed from our media will help as children can pick up on this from an early age. Remove page 3, talk about women’s sports equally, ensure a balance of presenters and reporters. Seeing women achieving things as the norm not an exception.

Sorry for going on there!

From experience, men tend to care when it becomes personal: their mother/sister/daughter. But this is more to do with it being an offence against “them” as opposed to the women in their lives.

The only man I know that gives a shit about sexism against all women is you. I imagine, in part, this was influenced by having me in your life. But your desire to challenge and eradicate sexism seems to go beyond my own experiences and is steeped in the ‘unfairness’ of the systems and structures that oppress.

Back to the original question, we can’t make men do fuck all. Men are more likely to listen to other men so allies can and should play a role but again, this is likely to be a fruitless task. As women, we will continue to highlight and raise awareness of what sexism is and the impact of sexism on ALL people. How it harms everyone and hope that the handful of men who actually give a shit will grow in number. If they don’t, then they will continue to remain on the periphery of my life. Because I simply don’t need their particular brand of bullshit toxifying an already challenging existence.

This is really difficult and massive question.

I guess first off guys talking to guys about it might be more effective. Many non feminist men simply wont give a shit if a woman starts talking about sexism, where as a feminist man might stand a better chance of getting through to them. Using all that male privilege the greater good. Doesn’t need to be in depth debate but even calling out sexist behaviors steadily can get guys to start self analysis. Can be a slow slow process but its either that or alienate by pushing to hard.

The likes of everyday sexism and everyday victim blaming are pretty brilliant for this. Bite sized chunks that show men what life can be like. offline local postering/sticker campaigns (pub loos are great) work well for this, even just graffiti. Some brilliant non victim blaming ads about rape/drinking have been around and while very basic again open the door. Just something about the pay gap either – many men simply not aware. Just straight forward facts of life that produce a gut reaction. Many men without knowing the damage they do participate in activities that harm and when they see the reactions and feelings of women it can do more work that handing them a feminist text. Starts them thinking if they see themselves as decent people. I don’t really know where to start with guys who aren’t interested or don’t care, or even laugh about campaigns. Many i think could be made to care if prodded enough but you need to know when to lose a lost cause.

After that The sharing of feminist lit written by men or male critique on feminist sites (Or anywhere that they might be read) can help wedge open an area to start talking about the dismissal of women words on womens issues to but easing newbies in to it with a safe male voice. NB not Schwyer and not to take precedence over womens voices – stepping stone.

May sound pandering (nature of the question leads to it though) but discussions of how the patriarchy also damages men are hugely important for this and can be an amazing lead in to systemic sexism. I’m not sure if there are many spaces in which this can be done outside of blogs and forums. Public meeting by feminist orgs willing to welcome men in even if only on a ad-hoc basis would do much good if the establishment of safe space rules is done before hand (been at many where this hasnt worked, others been amazing, and some where a vetting system was in place – this only brought in men already identifying as allies or feminists with feminist contacts)

I suppose ultimately men have to figure out what has worked for them in regards to educating themselves and try to expand upon that as educators of non feminist men. Male voices are especially needed for this.

Hope this was of some use and not too garbled. 🙂

Recent research into changing attitudes and behaviour suggests that creating proximity, that is making people see that it is something that affects them and theirs (i.e. via a friend or family member etc.) and/or creating a narrative that people can empathise with, preferably with the individual as ‘blameless’ is the biggest driver.

Some people reject this kind of approach because they believe it set up a dichotomy i.e. that caring about the impact of sexism should not rely on personal connections, or have concerns that feminism may dilute its commitment to ideals in favour of focusing on a ‘PR exercise’ that works for men. I have some sympathy for the latter but at the end of the day …………. eyes on the prize.

Of course, we usually go right to the “what if it was your mother/sister/daughter/wife” thing because it’s easy and it can be effective, but it’s also kind of lazy and reduces women’s importance as relating only to their relationships with and to men. However, if it works, should we not find a way to use it–perhaps with a caveat? “Understanding that women are people irrespective of their relationships to you, might you consider how sexism affects women you care about?” On the other hand, I think it might be more effective if we can ask men to walk in women’s shoes. Can we find an analogy to sexism? Something men face all the time but never thought to compare to what women face? Just thinking out loud…and I’ll think more on this. (Great question, and sorry it’s taken me a while to respond–I’ve been offline.)

I’ve also had a brief conversation on Twitter about this, and that conversation has been Storified here: http://storify.com/Zeeblebum/how-do-you-think-we-can-make-men-care-about-the-da-1

[With thanks to (in alphabetical order): @acrosstheaether, @cratesnribbons, @feministroar, @jamjar21, @lauren_amy93, @mkhajdin, @mmasammich, @planetcath, @plerpo, @portiasmart and @umlolidunno.]

What are your thoughts? Please add your comments below.

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Men in Fights!

[EDIT, 14/05/2013: I’ve just read this post – I Hate Nightclubs (They Feel Like Street Harassment To Music) – by Trudy on her Gradient Lair blog. If you’ve only got the time and/or inclination to read just one post, read Trudy’s instead of mine.]

I went out on Friday night. I got drunk. I went to a nightclub. I danced. These are all unusual things for me to do. But I enjoy them. And I enjoyed my night out.

While I was in the nightclub, I observed the following:

  • people sexually harassing other people;
  • a fight;
  • towards the end of the night, many people loitering on the fringes of the dancefloor, looking sad and haunted;
  • at the end of the night, outside of the nightclub, another fight.

What do all of these things have in common? In every case, the subjects of the behaviour were men:

  • men sexually harassing women
  • men fighting with other men
  • men loitering on the fringes of the dancefloor, looking sad and haunted
  • different men fighting with other different men

My dear fellow men – are we happy? We don’t look happy – we look angry and sad and rebuffed and bloodied and haunted. And – for the really unlucky ones amongst us – we look all of these things while sitting in the back of a Police van.

This is patriarchy and the cult of masculinity. It doesn’t have to be this way. We can choose to be different, to be better. And if we made that choice to be different and better, I think we’d be happier. And – here’s the real bombshell – if you don’t shove a glass into the face of that guy who just looked at you funny, it doesn’t mean that you are any less of a man.

More importantly, though, is that our behaviour would not then have a negative impact on other people, and particularly on women. Invading someone else’s personal space and violating their bodily integrity  – do we really think that this is okay? If another man does that to us, how do we respond? He may well have that glass shoved in his face. But men’s sexual harassment of women, it seems, is perfectly acceptable to us. This might be because we feel that our needs are more important than their needs, because we feel entitled to leer and touch and grope. And because this is seen as such ‘normal’ behaviour, I think that in a lot of cases there is no longer any consideration of women’s needs – this is what men want to do, and we’re damn well gonna do it. Finally, some men appear to have convinced themselves that this ritual is something that women generally find desirable and flattering – despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. All of this is then reinforced by our male friends, all of whom appear to think the same way.

What needs are we having met when we sexually harass women? Power, control, being a man, feeling like a man, being considered to be a ‘real man’ – that kind of thing. And that brings me back to patriarchy, the cult of masculinity, and the choices we make about the way we behave. We don’t have to behave like this – it’s not natural or genetic or biological. Attempting to dominate women is learned behaviour, and because it’s learned behaviour it’s something that we can change.

If we understand that we don’t need to define ourselves by our ability to have loads of sex with many different women, we might then realise that we don’t need to sexually harass women in nightclubs. It might also mean that fewer of us stand around on the fringes of dancefloors looking sad and haunted, feeling like sub-standard men. And women might feel safer, and not constantly on alert for the next assault.

Choosing not to sexually harass women (or stepping back from the potential fisticuffs) doesn’t make you less of a man – it just helps you along the road to becoming a decent human being.